WIN WIN: An Interview with Director Tom McCarthy & Alex Shaffer
Last week we featured an interview with Win Win stars and generally recognizable people Paul Giamatti and Amy Ryan, so this time around we figured we'd come at the film from a different angle: a roundtable talk with respected director Tom McCarthy, known previously for his bang-up jobs on The Station Agent and The Visitor, and fresh-faced Hollywood newbie Alex Shaffer, who in the film plays the role of dramatic crux and high school wrestling dynamo. At the film's center is Giamatti, who plays a good-at-heart family man who does something a little shady, and no matter how you cut it, Win Win is a rousing fusion of family/financial drama, comedy, sports, and suburban subtlety—pretty much, it's a nice add to the roster of anyone looking to see a good flick. It opened in Austin last Thursday, and you can catch it at places like the South Lamar Alamo.
Was it always your intention, Tom, to cast somebody with no background in Kyle's role?
Tom McCarthy: Yeah, it was. I think early on I decided I needed a wrestler for that role, not only because I used to wrestle, but beyond that I'm a sports nut and I can't stand when I'm watching movies and I feel like the actor can't actually play that sport or play it well, especially if that actor is supposed to be very good. If you can get away with it, like with Stemler [Ed. Note: a character in the film who isn’t a good wrestler], I wasn't as concerned that Stemler could wrestle. But in fact, David [Thompson, who plays Stemler] did have some wrestling experience, moderate as he said. And he said, "I actually used to wrestle like Stemler." But with Alex's character of Kyle, it was an early decision. And we saw probably a day or two of actors from New York, who were all very fine actors, and then we said, "Nah, we need a wrestler!"
And Alex, was it hard to do some of those more emotional scenes, like the scenes with your mother?
AS: Yeah, it definitely was hard for me because I've never acted before. But I got through it I guess. Tom helped me so much throughout the movie. Whenever I had trouble with a scene, he even set me up with an acting coach, he gave me a movie to watch. I mean he helped me so much. A good guy [laughs]!
Are people back at home giving you crap about all of this?
AS: Yeah man, my friends tease me so much. But not like a lot of crap. But if we are in Chili’s for example, just a random example, we’ll be inside Chili’s and they’ll go [whispering] “Oh my god, is that Alex Shaffer?” They love it.
TM: I met his friends, they are actually nice guys. I was surprised. I thought they were going to be merciless on you. But they were pretty supportive.
Tom, how did you decide that this time around you would have a nuclear family at the core? Was that risky?
TM: What was more risky to me wasn't so much dealing with the family—that just happened. It wasn’t “I’ll show them, I am actually making a movie with a family!” It was more risky setting it in that environment, a very conventional suburban American environment, and it’s not like I am a champion of the suburbs and wanted my whole life to make that movie. It just was where the story had to be told. And I say it was challenging because, how do you make it compelling to an audience? I have seen it before. I have seen variations of it. Especially because what I was setting out to do was represent that world very authentically without commenting necessarily too much on it. Without stylizing how I approach it. I just wanted to present that as the world. And in some level I had to make that world something that Mike wanted to fight for. So I couldn't shred it. And this is a place where as a young man—even though I had a good family and a good upbringing—I couldn't wait to get out of. My whole thrust was to get me the hell out of there. So to go back and make a movie about it was pretty interesting. And just maybe I am the age now where I could do it without going after it.
At the beginning Mike says “I don’t want to be a bartender,” but at the end that's actually what he ends up doing, so there’s a little bit of disappointment.
TM: I think it's realistic. Trust me, there was a big part of me that wanted to take Kyle's character down to Atlantic City and have him win the States and have them holding each other's arm up. I can see the poster, can't we all? I say that jokingly, but I mean it truthfully, too. Because visually I just thought, oh, this is going to be really cool! But it's so cramped in this movie, by design. I didn't want to blow out walls and step back and feel distance, I wanted it to feel like what it feels like, that if a guy wants to sneak a cigarette, he's got to go behind the Quick Check. But I didn't want it to be claustrophobic, either, because I don't think that's what the movie's about.
But yeah, it just felt honest, that world. It isn't everything all tied up at the end, and the victory isn't a wrestling victory. The victory is when he pulls into his driveway and he sees the kids just playing without thinking out on the front lawn. That's the victory, that's why people move to the suburbs, that's why they want that conventional, consistent lifestyle for the children. Because there's nothing better you can give a kid than that I think, where they can just be kids. So that to me felt like the victory, as uncinematic as that might be. Emotionally it was where that lied. And I keep coming back to that world, because I'm trying to follow that lead as opposed to, oh, “what would be really cool here?”
Alex, talk a little bit about the scene where you throw Paul to the ground. How did that work out and were you at all scared that something might happen?
AS: No, that was, I remember actually there was a double, but the double didn't do that scene. I remember having the conversation with Paul. And Paul was like, “They never let me do it! I want to do it! They never let me do it!” And we ended up doing it. But I wasn't exactly nervous. I mean, Paul is a tough guy. But he told us a couple days later on set that, “Yeah, I woke up the next morning and [groan sound],” so…
TM: It's a pretty good takedown. The one he does at the end, it's a pretty violent takedown even for wrestling.
AS: It's like a blast double, that's really what it is.
TM: Blast double? We're breaking that here, no one's heard that.
AS: Oh, yeah, breaking it out! Because I went home and I was thinking about it, like what's the name of that move again? I mean I'd never do it because I don't take shots, but that’s like a blast double.
Tom, what kind of wrestler were you? Were you on the A-team, B-team?
TM: I was trying hard to get on the A-team. I was pretty good. Like I started wrestling about third grade, fourth grade, so I was pretty good, not near his level. I never made it to States, never made it out of Regions actually. But I was decent. By my senior year I just burned out, I just quit going into my senior year because I realized it was a brutal sport and I wasn't having fun.
But I enjoy it. Going back and the research side of things, spending time revisiting the sport was a lot of fun. I got way into it going everywhere watching these matches. When [Alex] came in for his first meeting he said in the interview, “I have a match this weekend,” and I actually knew the guy he was wrestling.
But it's like Shakespeare—as soon as you start to understand the layout of the language and how Shakespeare operates it opens it up in a really beautiful way. So Joe [Tiboni, childhood friend and writer] and I were dropping stuff all the time to go to these matches. He'd be like, “Guess who's wrestling this week?” And we'd run out to see it. Or if it was New Providence in certain matches, the high school we were basing it on, we'd go watch them because we knew they were gonna get killed in a match or we knew they were gonna have a shot at winning something.
Alex, how did it feel the moment you knew you were going to be on this film?
AS: Ah, it was cool. I was a little shocked. It was right after region finals. But I came home and Tom was on the phone and I picked up in time. It was just like "Hey! You got the part!" and I was like, "Ah, cool!" and then he was like, “Don't dye your hair purple,” because in one of the auditions I had, I said I was going to dye my hair purple for States and...
TM: Why purple, by the way?
AS: Because it's just really cocky. I mean, that's the best way to put it. I always wanted to leave a mark out there. But the color meant nothing at all. Just cocky.
In the film you have the blonde hair. Was that a trick to help you get more into character and be more of a rebel?
TM: He came to us with blonde hair.
And was your hair dyed just to be cocky?
AS. No, that one wasn't actually cocky. We actually had to wrestle our rivalry team, so we all went over to a friend's house and we all just dyed our hair.
TM: A hair party!
AS: Hair party! Little crazy!
TM: You guys cut it loose!
AS: Yo, let's all bleach our hair these weekend! We'll get so buzzed!
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Click here to read the Paul Giamatti and Amy Ryan interview!
