Austinist: There is Hope - Infinite Hope. But Not For Us.

LoudMouth

Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:31:58 -0600

It's O.K. for the self-righteous to complain, but a child should never complain as they should be seen and not heard.

Grape Ape

Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:04:19 -0600

Then why is your church complaining about the city denying their request? Obviously, you believe its going to get you somewhere...

cp0602

Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:41:58 -0600

I am leaving with one last comment to you that asks if I am saying that God's message to him is somehow inferior to mine. God does not give differnt answers to to each person, so I say think what ever you want to think but my God is bigger than this whole thing and it really doesn't matter what anybody else does or says. You all just want something to complain about and this is just the thing to do it over. So go ahead and complain all you want. But I will tell you like I tell my class of 2 years olds, complaing gets you NOWHERE!

truecraig

Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:12:23 -0600

God loves parking lot. God loves... lamp.

LoudMouth

Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:32:37 -0600

God speaks to me and tells me that this is wrong. It is wrong to destroy the Earth. It is wrong to polute when you can walk or ride your bike to church. Are you saying that God's message to me is somehow inferior to yours?

cp0602

Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:34:23 -0600

to answer the growth question and the what would happen if we grew past parkinglot capactiy, that is when the church would multiply. Ya know plant another church. and for those out there who thought I was ranting, what exaclty are you doing?? At least I did invite you to check out our church. I can't believe how you all view christians, I am sorr if you were hurt by someone who called themself a "christian" but the people at this church are very different and I am not just saying that. I have been in the opposite position and my pastor is kind, compassionate and real. It is not about money, it's about seeing people who are struggling in any way turn to Jesus. If you all only knew what you were missing. God is so good and that is what it is all about. Now you can twist my words and say whatever you want about my church my pastor or how horrible we are because of this suit. But God has already won this battle and there is nothing left to be said, not by you or me.

cp0602

Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:33:59 -0600

LoudMouth

Fri, 01 Feb 2008 09:55:00 -0600

I'm still trying to figure out why families can't take the bus. It's because they're white, isn't it?

mdahmus

Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:38:54 -0600

Their name may say "in the city", but they're really "over the aquifer". And as for garage vs. lot; the point is that a garage would allow you to increase the number of spaces you have while still keeping impervious cover at 15%. Also, Tim at Loaded Gun Theory points out that there is bus service to this location: http://www.loadedguntheory.com/blog/director/listpost/tim/jesus_loves_parking_lots.html

Grape Ape

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:46:29 -0600

I liked the part in the response where he discussed how other means of access were investigated. Like accessibility to bus routes, caropooling programs and the like. All I see is a church that didn't get their way trying to trump the city's decision. They may like the city, but it is quite apparent they have no respect for it.

cp0602

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:38:43 -0600

Hey here is a link to the church website where the pastor has writtena response to the article. http://www.hopeinthecity.org/parking-lot/

cp0602

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:19:44 -0600

I was not making the comment about "christians" toward you, I was commenting to the others who have posted. How is a garage any different? People will then complain about there being a garage and then what?

cram

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:57:19 -0600

"As for walking, bikning and taking the bus; there are many who do this. But there are also alot of big families and therefore would be harder for them to do this. To this person who goes to church down the street, it is easy for you to say bike, walk,bus carpool whatever it takes; you have no problem with parking at oyur church! Before you all make judgements you need to take all sides into consideration." This might be the most absurd attempt at logic that I have read (this month).

wells

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:13:47 -0600

Apparently Hitchens was right: religion does poison everything, including the Barton Creek watershed.

Grape Ape

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:26:49 -0600

You see, asking people to attend just any church doesn't put money in the pastor's pocket. The more people going to his church, the more cars and helicopters he can buy and the more church sponsored trips he and his family can take to save those poor souls in Cancun or Tahiti.

LoudMouth

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:13:44 -0600

I think it might be a case of Christians being more willing to believe whatever anyone in a leadership position tells them.

jackietreehorn

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:12:03 -0600

Stupid question: What if the congregation continued to grow, and needed more space, or more parking? Will these restrictions have to be continually revisited and challenged? Or, do they intend to cap their their membership at, say, 1100 members--my guess is they don't as current membership rolls are insufficient. This seems like a rather slippery slope. I just don't get this. It seems as though the primary aim is the conversion of non-Christians to Christianity, as opposed to the attraction of followers to a specific church. That said, why not encourage newcomers to attend the services of surrounding churches with whose philosophy and outlook you agree?

Grape Ape

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:10:36 -0600

Actually, Jesus would just build a housing development accessed via toll road with a church in the center plus acres and acres of Hummer parking and would see to it that all salamanders were eradicated. What a bunch of crackpots - somehow the concrete used and runoff created by a church parking lot is differnt than that of a non-Christian parking lot? Apparently its more environmentally friendly if you Christian?

ahaley

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:04:44 -0600

This has nothing to do with christian vs non-christian. It has to do with ANY organization or entity that buys or builds on a location that has restrictions put in place to protect the sensitive environmental area around the property. Those rules are put in place to help protect EVERYONE regardless of religion. If people don't like the hands they are dealt then they should find a new game, not try to change the rules of the game they are in. If the city/county allowed everyone an extra 20% then where would we be?! 15% land cover is 15%, buy some more land and you can increase your allowed area. Otherwise live with it or find a new location. People aren't mad at your for practicing your religion, people are mad at you for using the excuse of practicing your religion as a reason you don't have to follow the rules.

Sigh

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:54:29 -0600

ok, did you just rant at us and *then* invite us to your church? really?

ELTB

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:50:35 -0600

you are all wrong, jesus would build a multi-level parking garage

mdahmus

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:03:51 -0600

cp, I haven't thrown the word Christian around at all, and I still think your expansion plan is wrong - there is no way that a big surface parking lot can be environmentally sensitive in this location; period.

cp0602

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:34:49 -0600

Ok I think that maybe you miss understood what I said or I did not convey it well. The plans for expansion are enviromentally safe, I did not say the the surface was enviromentally sensative. They have designed an enviromentally friendly way to expand the lot. They have consulted with a enviromental engineer on this matter. But regardless, I think that there are many people who have already decided that "Christians" are no good and this just gives them another reason to feel that way. I think that all the people who think this way need to stop making excuses and not blame there feelings on what they think a "Christian" is or should be. God accepts us for who we are. We are not perfect! So to those who think that Christians are no good, understand that the people in this church do not feel that way about those who are not Christians. And we know and understand that we are so far away from being perfect. I know that I can only speak for myself, but to those who don't believe me....come and find out for yourselves Sunday mornings at 10 am. ALL ARE WELCOME!!

mdahmus

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:08:29 -0600

cp, There's no such thing as an environmentally sensitive surface parking lot. They're all varying degrees of awful - and since the damage is nearly linearly related to surface area, a parking garage is the only real way to mitigate that damage.

cp0602

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:26:44 -0600

I go to this church and for those who are commenting on this "issue" I would like for you to know that all of you have no idea what you are talking about. I have been a part of this congrgation since the beginning. The heart of the church is to grow, but the plans for the expansion ARE envirmentally safe. They article FAILS to explain this. Never once did this case actually get heard. Therefore everyone is only making assumptions. As for walking, bikning and taking the bus; there are many who do this. But there are also alot of big families and therefore would be harder for them to do this. To this person who goes to church down the street, it is easy for you to say bike, walk,bus carpool whatever it takes; you have no problem with parking at oyur church! Before you all make judgements you need to take all sides into consideration. I am so appalled to see the few "Christians" who responded to this are also making judgements. And this is not "free parking" or the fact that we feel our "religious freedom" is being infringed!

mdahmus

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:15:42 -0600

kenneth, Nope, the church had an agreement for the NEW structure with the HPNA. It was part of what kept them from buying and knocking down more houses. When newer neighbors found out, they tried to form their own NA, and also some other shenanigans, like arguing over some fine print in the original agreement, but there was never any question about the fact that they had agreed to let them do it. PS: Austinist, if you don't want people posting double comments, fix this Internal Server Error and its ugly friend Proxy Error which makes me unclear if the first one really went through or not. Thanks.

mdahmus

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:14:30 -0600

sftl99

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:43:36 -0600

I go to a church down the street from this one and from what I've heard it's altogether a good church... That said, I think they're way off on this. Bus, carpool, bike, walk, whatever it takes... I would like to apologize on behalf of "Christians" even if they don't think they should apologize. I take caring for the environment very seriously and the laws that Austin have in place to protect it are one of the greatest aspects of living in this city. I believe Jesus cares for this world and every living thing in it. To those Christian folks who have a sense of entitlement to this earth, give this book a read: http://www.servegodsavetheplanet.org/. In fact, even if you don't share a believe in Jesus, that book has some incredible thing to say about why each and every one of us ought to care more about the world we live in. It touches on truths that that while they're taken from the Bible can transcend into anyone's life.

LoudMouth

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:20:59 -0600

So I guess the only thing to do now is to pray for the Lord's Holy Earth As It Was Meant To Be and pray that unless they change their ways the entire congregation will burn in Hell.

Elizabeth S.

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:34:03 -0600

I go to a church downtown and have to park my car a ways away and have never thought that my religious freedoms were in any way infringed. This story irks me. It says the church plans to grow to over 1000 members. If they knew that, why didn't they choose a better location with more parking possibilities? Agh.

tim

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:19:25 -0600

This is my parent's church. And my mom sent me back and email wondering why I thought this was despicable. Obviously they believe God will provide, or rapture. Of course no one ever wonders if Paul was being literal when he said that only 144,000 Christians would be raptured. Perhaps because they died after paving over all their drinking water.?

kenneth1

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:57:59 -0600

kenneth, unfortunately, the HBPC case wasn't that cut and dried - they had a grandfathering angle, and a signed agreement with the neighborhood association (which the neighbors then tried to circumvent by claiming that they were a NEW neighborhood association or somesuch) in which they agreed to stop buying houses in a certain direction in return for the NA accepting their right to build the garage. It's been a long time ago, but my recollection is that the grandfather clause was for the existing garage on Speedway. Then HPBC decided to build a bigger one next to it (because clearance was too low for their members' huge SUVs), and HPNA tried to block it by holding them to the original agreement. So IIRC, it was HPBC which tried to circumvent the agreement, not the NA, and they hired Richard Suttle to take the neighborhood to court. Regardless, there is a federal law that says churches don't have to abide by zoning regulations or land-use restrictions imposed by cities. I'm betting Hope In The City will hire Suttle and invoke this law.

madcityjts

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:55:42 -0600

My personal communion with a higher power involves frequent swims in Barton Springs and hikes on the green belt. I wonder if I could counter-sue since they will be infringing on my religion.

YoYoMa

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:19:46 -0600

no, dude, Jesus would walk, possibly performing a few miracles along the way.

mdahmus

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:15:48 -0600

HPBC had a more compelling grandfathering angle - grandfathering can realistically be trumped by water quality issues more than it can by things like traffic.

LoudMouth

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:00:55 -0600

Stupid server error. I SAID Jesus would take a bus.

LoudMouth

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:00:35 -0600

Jesus would take a bus.

shilli

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:00:35 -0600

Apparently there is also a grandfathering argument in this case. Also, the city said that this church can build a parking garage - just not more surface parking.

mdahmus

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:52:38 -0600

kenneth1

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:38:39 -0600

Remember the Hyde Park parking garage? They'll get their way, just like HPBC, because congress has decreed that (Christian) churches can build whatever they want without abiding by environmental laws.

chocosaur

Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:33:42 -0600

since when does free exercise of religion mean free parking?