November 5, 2007
Austin Music Commission Considering Plan to Stop the Rock
Austin's future as Rock Capital of the Universe or whatever hangs in the balance at tonight's meeting of the Austin Music Commission. The Commission will be discussing a proposed ordinance that would change the requirements for obtaining an outdoor music permit, prohibiting music within 100 feet of a residence and lowering the decibel limit from 85 to 75 or 70 depending on the hour. Decibels are measured on a crazy "logarithmic scale," so a reduction of ten decibels means a 50% reduction in volume.
Most proponents of the plan to cut out all that racket appear to be members of south Austin neighborhood associations, not downtown residents (except for one couple that the Daily Texan found, who live on Sixth and Trinity and have been complaining about the noise for 35 years). Opponents of the change say that lowering the noise limit would put music venues out of business and threaten Austin's reputation as a haven for live music. Regardless of whether there is a change in the ordinance, APD has recently obtained several more decibel meters and say they will begin enforcing the existing ordinance more strictly.
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Shouldn't this be put up for a vote?
The article from the Daily Texan is 5 years old, but it's still worth noting that 410 E. 6th St is not a house -- it's above a bar. The Avenue Lofts are at 410 E. 5th St and one would assume -- given the description of "6th and Trinity" -- that 410 E. 6th St is that huge apartment above Paradise.
If that's the case, those people moved out years ago because every semester or two that place has a big banner hanging on the side of it announcing that its for rent. And it is consistently repopulated with more college students who think it'd be fun to live above a bar for a semester or two.
Correction: that place may be above one of the bars across from Paradise/The Library since the condos on 5th are on the North side of 5th st... one would assume the Graebers also live on the north side of 6th st.
Either way, they're living on top of a bar (or very close to on top of one) since your only options on 6th st are above a bar, a pizza place, or store that sells Keep Austin Weird shirts.
"Opponents of the change say that lowering the noise limit would put music venues out of business and threaten Austin's reputation as a haven for live music."
Wasn't Austin supposed to turn into some sort of musical wasteland after the smoking ban passed too?
I have a direct view into the apartment above Paradise from the Avenue Lofts; that apartment has what appears to be four or more college-aged guys living there. I watched them move in a few months back. I know the complaints aren't from them. My boyfriend and I checked into it to see how much the rent was, and it's super expensive. Even for downtown it's expensive. Besides, the firestation at 5th and Trinity is WAY louder that any bar or club.
As Austin grows and housing becomes more dense, dropping the decibel level makes sense. Most larger cities have strict controls on noise. If businesses don't want to turn down the music they should invest in soundproofing.
Sigh. Sometimes I am truly ashamed of my neighborhood association. Sadly, I don't have time to stage a coup, what with all these baby bottles to wash and diapers to change.
I was able to weigh in on VMU and the neighborhood's position on that was reasonable. But, dammit, the wrongheaded folks just have more time to cause hassles than I do to try to shut them up.
If I remember from about 4 years ago, that above-Paradise apartment was about $4-6k/month for 3600 sqr feet. I want to say my friends and I estimate 4-6 people at about $800-1000/month, but I could be totally imagining all those numbers.
Anyway, that was my bad on the assumption that the Graeber's were above Paradise. I totally forgot the north side of the street is where the even numbers are.
I'm really not sure where anything described as a "House" could reside at 6th and Trinity. There is that apartment/condo above the little weird store between Mooseknuckles and the pizza place or something that Johnny Depp (I believe) lived in years ago. But when I was up there a couple years ago, it definitely was NOT an older couple who had lived downtown for 30+ years throwing the party. And above Jackalope used to be Bob Populars, so that area isn't a "house". Do these people live above Co-op bar or something?
Oh, and the funny part of all of this -- as I think about where these people might live -- is that they're not even NEAR a music venue. Jackalope, Agave, and Pete's Piano Bar are about as close to music venues as you can get on that strip of 6th. If they really hate the noise, go complain to Iron Cactus for having that DJ on the roof every weekend during the day this past summer or to Coyote Ugly for blasting AC/DC and having Harley parties on Thursdays.
A hair dryer blowing hair has a decibel level of 75.
And as for Edward's commentary on the Smoking Ban being bad for live music venues, I'd love to show you how much money we've lost over the past 2 years.
Yes, this town got bamboozled by the American Lung Association (who is the No. 1 property owner in the United States and runs itself as a faceless corporation) and those proponents who claimed that they were now free to visit live music venues without running the risk of being bothered by other people.
If you don't want to come to Room 710, then don't. (Heck, your run of the mill Austinist editorial staff member can tell you that.) Just don't try to shut down my business of 7+ years because you've got some unreasonable and unproven ideologies.
Thanks.
Room 710
Room 710,
Assuming the smoking ban hurt your business, where do you think all of your smoking patrons went? Did they stop going out entirely? Did other businesses pick up? Don't want to rehash the smoking ban argument here, I am sincerely curious.
it seems as if all of this started from people in the Bouldin neighborhood trying to keep outdoor places, like Freddie's, from infringing on their rights. does it only concern outdoor venues? will it only be enforced in that neighborhood. i am confused and must play softball during the momo's meeting, so someone clarify for me. and i think 75 decibels is the sound of a hair-dryer blowing in your room and equivalent to the ambient sound of live music from down the street in your room, or am i wrong? i probably am, as i don't understand things much. especially science.
I'm interested in hearing more about the unproven ideology that particulate matter in the air is bad for healthy lungs.
There's a reason why it is called a "smoker's cough" and not a "smoker's happy rainbow full of butterflies streaming out of delightful lungs".
There are some reasonable reasons for being opposed to the smoking ban, but denying that lungs do not like debris in them is absurd.
Room 710,
The American Lung Association is the #1 property owner in America? Could you show some documentation of that claim?
Also, maybe your bar has suffered because it's a mediocre establishment that hosts low quality music acts and has nothing particularly special to offer over many of the newer bars in the immediate vicinity. Just a thought.
BTW, I voted against the smoking ban.
Room 710,
You're a bad person. If I was going out, which I'm not, I'd avoid the place of anybody remotely connected to the pack of liars who polluted the discussion with a certain brand of bullshit.
HTH.
Ted Turner is the American Lung Association?
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/132741
Uncle Sam owns 624million acres of land. Take that American Lung Association and Ted Turner!
Interesting all of the hate for Room 710. Especially by those people who don't go out, or who consider the music played here as less than talented. Kudos to you to for maintaining the less than stellar quality of a blog devoted to the happenings around Austin.
The American Lung Association records were obtained by a compatriot in the field of live music venues. He shared this information which was printed out of something called a sheet of paper. Why don't you stop by the club sometime and check it out yourself? Or does Wikipedia need to be the final proof you seek?
Your lungs are deteriorating. That is not a lie. Smog is in the air, big trucks sit idle on highways, and you breath it all in. Pumping gas affects your lungs, people. In some states, there's a bumper to the gas tank, but not in Texas. Room 710 would like you to wonder why.
Please find the proof that second hand smoke causes lung disease. Please show how this second hand smoke isn't being confused with air pollution or genetics. No, instead you just play into the big lie, which does what again? Put people out of business for sake of some boogeymonster hanging out on the fringes of society? Where has Room 710 seen this ploy played out before?
As a final note, I think it's interesting that Hitler tried to pass a No Smoking ban in Germany, while Einstein was noted for smoking his pipe in class.
Room 710 is stickler for the Allies.
A special note to you, Edward: How can you say that Room 710 losing money is merely an assumption on our behalf when we are the ones who have lost our money?
But where did the people go? Well, Red Eyed Fly has a patio. Sidebar has a patio. You know, places with patios. Or they stayed home. Bar patrons are notoriously short lived. They are here for a period of time; they don't shop our bar like they are shopping at an HEB.
And, HTH, the same shenanigans who are telling you that 75 decibels is a proper noise for downtown Austin also convinced people to vote for a smoking ban because "the nonsmokers will start coming out to the establishments, making up for the loss of business from longtime customers." As mentioned, we lost money for 2 straight years, and while the smoking ban isn't the only source for that loss, it definitely didn't help when folks were off at other places smoking cigarettes. As vile and atrocious as Room 710 may be to you, it's great that I can bring you up to date with the blue laws of a red state.
I don't really care to rehash the smoking ban. Anyone who actually goes out to clubs regularly can tell you that there is no smoking ban.
As for a bunch of south Austin neighborhood associations getting a pole up their but about noise levels...
I have but one word: gentrification.
South Austin used to be synonymous with "hip" and "cool" and was the home to many if not most of Austin's musicians. I still live there.
But times are changing. Richer, whiter, more successful people are moving in all over town and they are remaking Austin in their image.
That does not mean that Austin's music scene will die. It will just move and change. Honestly, I don't think that it would be all that bad to shake things up in the music scene around this town anyway. It has gotten fairly stagnant around here. The last time it felt really energetic and new and exciting was when Redriver opened up as the new cool place to be scene. Pun intended.
And yes. That is thanks to Room 710 and Beerland.
The people whining about the noise in South Austin are the ones who have been there forever - the neighborhood association draws this particular kind of scum to itself as if by some peculiar swamp magnetism, and it's very hard to shake them loose.
In other words, Jeff Jack isn't a gentrifier.
You have to keep in mind that 85 decibles (the current limit) is 5 decibles LOWER than the sound of a lawn mower. In fact, it's the same as the noise level of a busy street. So the neighborhood is proposing that outdoor music on S. 1st and S. Congress be at the exact same level as the ambiant street noise. You don't hear them pushing for a ban on lawnmowers, which are 3 times louder than the proposed daytime limit.
To AcesHigh - While I agree that "most larger cities have strict controls on noise", I have to point out that Austin, too, has strict controls on noise. It's just that we set the outdoor limit at 85 decibles. Besides, most large cities don't claim to be "Live Music Capital of the World".
To Mdahmus - Sorry, but no, these people have NOT been in South Austin forever. The driving force seems to be a resident on West Annie who bought his house in Nov. 2000, and is now called by the NA a "long-time resident". When he bought that house, he was likely to be awoken during the night by screaming drug dealers, fighting drunks, shady characters attempting to open his windows at night, or street walkers looking to relieve themselves in a dark backyard. I'm of the opinion that live music should be praised as the vast improvement to his property values that it is.
I've seen more than my fair share of bands around town. And the one thing every band needs to learn... louder does not equal better. Actually, louder covers up band music, playing, and lyrics. So I do understand why so many bands play so loud. 99 out of 100 are just crappy.
Although I disagree with 710s conspiracy theories, I also voted against the smoking ban. Which is why I wonder whether this sound ordinance is something we can vote on. See previous wondering in comment #1. Does anyone have any information on how these decisions are made/who makes them?
For all those comparing 75 decibels to hairdryers and lawn mowers, those sources generate noise at relatively high frequency which is easily stopped by a wall. Live music contains very high AND very low frequencies. It's the lower frequencies that aren't as easily picked up by meters and they aren't stopped by the average wall in your home.
I love live music but I can't stand the douchebag sound guy that feels the need to turn the music up so loud that I can't carry on a conversation with my friends without losing my voice for the next couple of days. Take a hint and turn it down.
I'm just asking that we be fair.
No one over 13 years old or living outside of San Antonio city limits likes the douchbag sound guy that leaves your ears bleeding. And crappy music is crappy music, loud or soft. I don't particularly believe that loud volumes make crappiness less noticeable.
If you want a purely musical scale upon which to base your judgment, coolmath dot com tells us:
Decibel > Musical Reference
150 > Trumpet peaks at 5" away
140 > Rock Singer screaming, lips on mic
125 > Cymbal Crash
115 > Fender Guitar Amp at full volume from 10" away
85 > Current Outdoor limit in Austin
80 > Typical home stereo listening level
Also 80 > Acoustic guitar played with finger, at 1 foot away
75 > Proposed outdoor limit (daytime)
70 > Proposed outdoor limit (nighttime)
Unless Bouldin Creek NA wants people to actually sit INSIDE the acoustic guitar, it still looks to me like 85 is a reasonable limit for a city that prides itself on its music.
(Aside to Jros) - the Music Commission is discussing the issue at the request of the City Planning Commission. The Planning Commission is feeling pressure from its President, Saundra Kirk, to pass this revision. I'm guessing that after ignoring whatever input they get from the Music Commission, Ms. Kirk will recommend the change to the City Council, who will then vote it down or vote it into law. No public vote will be scheduled unless there is a citizen initiative (AKA, the smoking ordinance).
The Bouldin NA hasn't taken an official position on this. Some wrongheaded members are supporting it. Their goal is to shut down existing outdoor music venues and prevent others from starting. These folks are pretty much anti-fun in general.
http://www.corneroak.com/leaves/le110607.html
Be grateful the new Sound Ordinance isn't being pushed by the Nanny State, as in the UK, where music venues may be designated as "Hearing Protection Zones" if the noise level exceeds 85db and bartenders and employees will be required to wear ear protection.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6252634.stm
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051643.htm#6
Can we say "second-hand noise"? Yes, we can.
PLEASE NOTE:
I have posted many of the related articles to the proposed Noise Ordinance on my blog at http://www.myspace.com/phillippelavere, including the original proposal submitted to the Planning Committee, and the articles that appeared in the Statesman and the Chronicle.
Despite a few people who were a bit rude, it was good to see that around 200 actually showed up to speak on this issue.