All Dogs Go to Heaven. Oh, and Christians. And That's It.

Very far fetched.

I'll keep in mind for the future that Evangelical Jebus doesn't care how much or how often you lie; as long as you don't call people names. Except for "sinners"; that's OK. And "smug". And "self-righteous". And "godless". Those are all OK too.

I guess ignorance is bliss.

And name-calling and spite trump everything else.

Hope that works out for you.

BH,

None of those equate, not even in Happy Religious Universe where Stuff Like That Actually Even Happens, with "atheists shutting down your church".

NONE.

Keep on trucking. You're redefining "wanker" for a new generation.

Lies?

Unfortunately, no. But I will give you that it is not just atheists.

So as not to offend anyone, we removed any reference to Christianity from Christmas. Merry Christmas? No, my friend, you have to say, "Seasons greetings."

Big deal, you say? Maybe so. Let's move ahead...

Canada passes human-rights statutes that severely curtail freedom of speech and religous freedom. In fact, a newspaper is fined for citing Bible verses criticizing homesexuality. It did not actually print the verses, mind you, just citing them was enough.

Well, that's Canada you say. Nothing like that going on here. Unfortunately, you'd be wrong.

In the US, speech codes and the like are usually enacted by private institutions rather than the government (a point made by a Mr. Arch Puddington in a Freedom House paper entitled "Freedom of Expression After the 'Cartoon Wars'").

A number of universities, for example, have instituted strict speech codes. Under these codes, Christian students could be punished for simply expressing their religous beliefs.

But that's in universities, not churches, you say.

Well, that is true. But some atheists, and those cowards who are afraid of offending anyone, along with secular progressives who believe religion has no place in society, keep pushing us down that 'slippery slope'. And one day we wake up in a country where a preacher/priest/pastor is subject to criminal penalties for something he/she said in a sermon.

Far-fetched, you say? No way that could happen here?

I am afraid that it is not nearly as far-fetched as you think.

By the way, you can keep your puppy and your ice cream.

BH,

Let me put this in a more friendly way. I hope you get ice cream and a new puppy.

You're still a lying sack of excrement. Atheists aren't trying to shut down your church; they frankly don't care what you do in your own building.

There's no point 'debating' Socrates-style with people who will post outright lies. There really isn't.

" I don't know how much more succinctly I can put it."

Oh, you have made it clear.

You have made it painfully clear that you are very narrow minded. And that you can't debate anyone without stooping to personal attacks.

Which is what people usually do when they ain't got no argument, just hot air and bile.

Truecraig, I agree. Public debate is great. Mind-expanding, even.

I'm a HUUUUUUGE fan of public debate. Huge. I believe it to be a healthy, necessary element to the advancement of civil society (whatever that means). But regardless of my position on this particular issue, I think it best that we all steer pretty clear of personal desires/wishes/recommendations for the opposition's death (fiery or otherwise).

Comment moderation is a sticky subject here at Austinist. Gets people upset. Gets ME upset. Please don't force our comment-deleting pimp-hand(s) by being recklessly belligerent.

BH, I believe your opinion(s) is (are) always welcome here. Regardless of any other (my) stance.

BH,

You're a lying sack of shit. I don't know how much more succinctly I can put it. #5 in particular - until the atheists tell you what you can and can't do INSIDE YOUR CHURCH, you're just full of it.

Please die in a fire.

1. Obviously, you can't make an argument without attacking your opponent and name-calling. Nice debating style. What is next, "I know you are, but what am I?"

2. My point from the beginning was that Perry was condemned for simply stating what he believed, in an answer to a direct question from a reporter. He never said anyone else had to believe that way.

Condemned, by the way, by the same crowd that is always telling us we must be respectful of other people's points of view.

3. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. If you want to believe that the walnut tree in your backyard controls the universe and speaks to you in dreams, you are free to do so.

4. Yeah, it looks like Haggard is a big hypocrite. But he has got nothing to do with this issue.

5. And they - they being atheists, etc. - are trying to close my church. There are many efforts underway to curtail Christians' religous freedoms. They do not just want Christians to "stop putting your church's icons up in the town square." They want to remove any mention of Christianity from the public discourse, the 'town square', academia, etc. We don't want to offend anyone, so we better just get rid of Christianity all together. Talk about the state being our religion. That is where they would like us to go.

All of this smug, self-righteous blather about imaginary sky daddies, religion being nothing more than a political tool, and 'woe is me, I have all this science, yet I still can't convince people that God doesn't exist" is really missing the point.

We are all free to believe whatever we want to believe. You, me, and Gov. Perry.

Dear Bah Humbug, you dumber-than-a-box-full-of-hammers Jesus-freak:

The atheists aren't trying to shut down YOUR CHURCH. They're trying to get you to stop putting your church's icons up in the town square.

If you had more IQ points than the Bible's got testaments, you'd understand the difference.

If there's any justice in this world, your imaginary sky daddy's going to be held against you when you get to the Pearly Gates and discover it's been Vishnu all along.

"The atheists don't care if you believe. They aren't trying to close down churches."

Wrong. Maybe some, or even most, don't. But there are the aethists trying to get a cross that is part of a memorial to veterans near San Diego removed. Neudow (not sure on the spelling), an aethist, recently tried to get the words, "under God" removed from the Pledge. These are but two examples.

Also, under the Constitution, you have the right to freedom of religion, to believe whatever it is your little heart wants to believe.

You don't have the right to not be offended.

"Because, and pay attention, you preening jackass of a waste of blood and hair: Gov. Perry's expressed beliefs are that if you don't believe like him, you're going to Hell, and that, besides, Christian views on what you should and shouldn't do should be embodied in the law."

Didn't get enough fiber this morning, did you?

I guess it all boils down to tolerance and respect for everyone except those who believe differently than you.

Uh-oh. Benji called God a tool....

Isn't *that* a ticket straight to hell?

(Okay, juvenile humor, but at 24 comments, isn't it kind of warranted...?)

Woah!

Touche.

"These same people who (wrongly) accused Perry of trying to force his beliefs on others expect everyone to be tolerant of and embrace everyone else's viewpionts and beliefs, and in the same breath they condemn Gov. Perry for what he believes."

Because, and pay attention, you preening jackass of a waste of blood and hair: Gov. Perry's expressed beliefs are that if you don't believe like him, you're going to Hell, and that, besides, Christian views on what you should and shouldn't do should be embodied in the law.

The Jews don't bother me with their shit. They aren't trying to get non-Jews to stop eating non-kosher food. The atheists don't care if you believe. They aren't trying to close down churches.

There's only two groups that feel the need to tell everybody else what to do: Islamists and Christianists. Do you feel like you're in good company, Osama bin Haggard?

Everyone is free to believe whatever they care to believe. No one is disputing that.

My two main points are:

1. Everyone was saying that Perry was trying take what he believes and cram down everyone else's throat. When he did no such thing. A reporter asked him what he believed, and he answered, saying that in "my faith" this is what "I believe".

2. These same people who (wrongly) accused Perry of trying to force his beliefs on others expect everyone to be tolerant of and embrace everyone else's viewpionts and beliefs, and in the same breath they condemn Gov. Perry for what he believes.

P.S. -

Miguel de Cervantes said, "Too much sanity may be madness, and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be."

"god" has been a political tool since go. i completely understand everyone's frustration at the unconstitutional dichotomy of church and state, especially in texas, but let's be realistic-- church is state, and vice versa. remember when christianity was underground, and its followers were fed to lions as sport and punishment? the origin of the word 'christian' was actually pejorative, taunting, meaning 'little christ'. then it became official policy of the empire. while i'm all for people not being fed to lions, it wasn't exactly an organic, evangelical explosion. rather than be defeated by christians, the roman empire adopted christianity. now the roman empire IS the catholic church. new name, new face, but it still survived-- mission accomplished. point is, religion is a vehicle of coercion, manipulation, control, and moral unity among the non-ruling classes. it's so pervasive, it's not even questioned anymore. humbug (in post #4) implied christians have been marginalized, having received the short stick in the 'diversity' game. well, all i can say is, try being atheistic, 'spiritual' or non. all of science on your side, and most texans will think you're insane.

Jooley Ann,

I think the best place to start is Genesis Ch. 15. This is the first time salvation through faith is mentioned. I believe that God also tells Abraham that Christ will be born to his lineage. Additionally, the prophets mention the Son of God a number of times in the Old Testament.

Josh, thanks for saying what needed to be said. I wish the image of Christians as a group that's universally disdainful toward other faiths weren't so prevalent. It's painful and, as E said, galling -- especially when one is a Christian. Like most major global religions, we have our good eggs...and our really rotten ones.

And Bah? Uh, since when did JC make it into the Old Testament...? "The belief that the only way to Heaven, or to be saved, is through faith in Jesus Christ is repeated over and over again in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments." (...though I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to ask...)

Eliz. S....

Just as Gov. Perry has the right to believe what he believes, you have the right to disagree with him.

Josh...

"Perhaps the governor of a state with millions of Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and agnostics or atheists should not have this disdainful, patronizing attitude towards the people he is elected to serve?"

A reporter asked him what he believed, and he answered. The belief that the only way to Heaven, or to be saved, is through faith in Jesus Christ is repeated over and over again in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments. You are free to believe that or not, as you please. That is your right.

What about the Muslims, Hindus, agnostics, and atheists? They are free to believe what they want to believe. Perry never said they couldn't. You expect Perry to be tolerant of what Muslims, Hindus, etc. believe, yet you condemn him for believing what he believes.

And since when are Catholics not Christians?

True that. We need to forget about this religion and move on to the serious matters. No, not economics or healthcare. I mean the really serious issues, like faith based opposition to abortion and homosexuality. God did say to love everyone.*

*Cept for them abortion havers and gays.

We know what he really meant. Oooh, I have to go eat this pork sandwich now.

Religion is a tired political tool. Voting for or against anyone based on their religious views is as practical as voting for or against someone based on the brand of their suit.

I realize the "religion/brand" comparison-thing might not be appealing to many. But in the bleaching light of politics and voter influence, they are, quite unfortunately, equivalent.

Easy for me to say, but if you're religious: don't let a politician hijack your faith. If you're not religious: don't let a politician seed you with fear of their religious opposition. It only strays us away from the real issues.

Correction: Perry covered his face because he was sobbing. Haggart had promised him that he was his "one and only." Love hurts.

BH - I'm a Christian and the fact that Perry thinks it is his responsibility to save Texan children from "a culture of godlessness" galls me to no end.

http://pinkdome.com/archives/2006/11/more_on_the_flu.html

Correction 1 - "reverend."

Correction 2 - Kinky is at least nominally Jewish.

The majority of Christians do not believe that members of other faiths are going "straight to hell with a nonstop ticket" as this reverent said in Perry's presence. The fact that Perry is Christian is not the issue; all of the candidates are Christians. It's the fact that he agrees with this sentiment. Perhaps the governor of a state with millions of Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and agnostics or atheists should not have this disdainful, patronizing attitude towards the people he is elected to serve?

"If you don't want to vote for Perry because he is a Christian, fine."

I disagree, there are plenty of better reasons not to vote for him.

Actually, according to Webster's...

tenent

\Ten"ent\, n. [L. tenent they hold, 3d pers. pl. pres. of tenere.] A tenet. [Obs.] --Bp. Sanderson.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

But that is neither here, nor there, and I digress.

The Perry quote:

"In my faith, that's what it says, and I'm a believer of that," the governor said.

Please show me where Perry said everyone must believe what he does? The DMN asked Perry what he believed, and that is what he answered. He didn't say 'everyone must believe' anything.

If you don't want to vote for Perry because he is a Christian, fine. Just don't mischaracterize what he said.

So many Christians, too few lions.

Well, I'll give you that "garuanteed" may have been a typo. But "tenent" just looks like someone doesn't quite know the word he is trying to use. Good effort though, that WAS a tough one. I agree with what Mark said. By the way, I'm not saying that I have a problem with people having their own views, that is what America is all about. Just don't cram them down our throats when you are supposed to be representing everyone in the state.

I think the point is that people are not trying to cram those other religions down our throats with such fervor or telling us that if we don't believe it we're all going to hell or trying to leverage their numbers to gain political clout unheard of from any other special interest group. The manner in which the Repubs have eradicated the church-state separation should be cause for serious alarm. These people try to say we were founded as a Christian nation, etc., but that's disingenuous. They're only in favor of evangelical Christianity, not anything else (sorry Catholics, Mormons, etc.), and they feel so justified right now. The founders of our country might have been Christian, but they also knew to keep their religious beliefs as far as possible from the government.

Typos, typos. Gud thing I didn't mispel any other werds.

So Christians and Christianity are "ridiculous"? Actually, this intolerance to Christian belief is more akin to the Taliban.

We hear all the time from the Left about how we should be tolerant, respect the views and beliefs of others, and embrace diversity. Except when it comes to Christianity, I guess.

Well, thinking that way is ridiculous. I don't know that we should have someone running our fine state who thinks like that. He probably also doesn't believe in evolution or dinosaurs.

Also, that's actually a good point about the Taliban. That attitude is really not that different.

P.S.

To Bah Humbug: You might wanna work on that spelling a bit before your next posting. "tenet" and "guaranteed". Just a helpful hint. Good luck in the future.

you're funny

Wow. You preach about tolerance and diversity, then make fun of and criticize Perry for his religous beliefs.

Jesus said that no one could come to the Father except through Him. That is what Christians believe.

Kinky's remarks, like most of his statements, were pretty silly. No one is/was obsessing about "who's going to heaven and who's going to hell". Hagee was simply stating a basic tenent of the Christian faith. And the Taliban comparison was ridiculous and irresponsible.

Last time I checked, freedom of religion was garuanteed by our Constitution. If Perry believes that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus - or, if he believed that there was a giant spaceship hovering over the earth, a la Louis Farrakhan, what business is it of the Dallas Morning News?